JD ALLEN INTERVIEW
Part II
We were fortunate enough to catch up with JD Allen during one of his visits to Madrid. The saxophonist, currently based in NYC, frequently tours across Europe and is usually joined by a solid trio featuring Sebastián Chames on piano, Rubén Carles on bass, and Juanma Barroso on drums. This quartet, by the way, recently released an album titled Punto de Encuentro.
On this occasion, they were in the middle of their now traditional residency at the legendary Café Central. We had the chance to drop by at the end of their second set on a Monday at midnight and share an intimate and insightful conversation with JD, in which he spoke openly about his vision of music, his current projects, and other equally inspiring reflections.
Here we present the second part of the interview. You can go ahead and check the first part here.
JD Allen: I had a rehearsal today, you know, like the recording that you heard…, so I had one sheet of paper with twelve tone rolls on it and that’s all we had, you know. So, like I said “okay, go here and you go there” and then we just…, but I had so much fun not knowing what was gonna happen.
In&OutJazz: Yeah, that’s how a baby feels about the world or whatever, really. I mean, this is an interesting thing a baby’s or feels always safe whenever mom’s around, you know.
Yeah, that’s true.
So, if there’s…, mom or dad…, or whoever is in charge of the kid…
We’re dependent on the mom and dad hahahahah, shit. If you had my mom and dad, you’d be like “shit, let’s get away from them” hahahaha. Oh, fuck.
But you got it, you got it.
No, I understand, I understand. I saw my first flamenco show last night. I love flamenco. Oh, my God. First time hearing it, first time seeing it live. And I talked to one of the musicians, and that, to me, felt the closest to what we do, actually, in terms of improvising, and like the form of it.
I’ve always said the same, man. I’ve always said…
Bro, I hear the blues roots…
The flamenco roots, are as deep as whatever true music roots you find. And jazz is the same for sure.
So, what’s it like playing music here for you? Like, how is it?
Wow, you want the truth or the…, the brief answer or the long answer?
Okay, it’s probably like it is for everybody all over the world. Everybody says that. Even in the States.
I’d say, I’d say, wherever you are at, you have to get your ass out there and stand along the greater cats.
Yeah, that’s true.
So, that’s how it is wherever you are at, you know.
That’s what you gotta do, that’s the best way.
If you get the chance to…, whatever, you know, to fly to other scenes and check out other cats and other scenes, that’s going to give you more richness at the end. So, that’s going to be great. Or if you get the chance to tour with those greater musicians for a while and you make your trips and visit other countries and stuff, that always broadens your mind, you know. But, you know, what I’m, you know, the truth is, I think we all have to be serious and take care of our relationship with music, you know. So, that’s the thing that, you know, even if you’re having success or whatever, you could lose, you know. And you could start feeling music in a way where you feel like you already know everything, there’s nothing unexpected. Music can turn into something else, can turn into socializing or whatever. But music, man, it should be something as deep as it is for a baby to open his or her eyes and see, “oh, water in a cup!”, you know, or, “oh, smoke!”. You don’t have a judgment, you don’t have a statement. You don’t think smoking is whatever or, you know. It’s, you just, wow, go crazy about creation, you know. So, as long as you take care of that feeling about music, I think you’re gonna be great wherever you have to go. Because then, I think we all have the experience, if you start comparing, you’re dead.
Yeah. I had a teacher when I was a kid…
I mean, if you start saying “I have to be like that cat”, the best thing you’ll achieve is, as we always say, a very bad copy of that guy. “I wanna sound like Immanuel Wilkins, I wanna sound like Joel Ross, I wanna sound like Tigran Hamasyan, I want to sound like…”, you know, whoever, “I want to sound like JD Allen, I want to sound…”. It’s, man, I mean, it’s cool if you’re following them. But if you want to be them, that’s not following, that’s another thing.
Well, you gotta do a little bit of that too. I mean, you know.
No, you gotta imitate, for sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got to do that.
That’s part of following.
You got to do that, you know, you gotta do a bit of that. This is like, you know, you mentioned parents. We all have things that we take from our parents.
Oh, yeah.
You know, someone told me, what’s the definition of new? Do you know the definition of the word new?
New?
Yeah, new, like something that’s new.
Yeah, something new.
What is the definition of it?
Something that’s, I’d say something that’s not still. Something that’s, but…
Try the definition of new. Like, this is, this is something new. What is the definition of new?
Yeah, something that doesn’t taste as something still… Change.
Change? New is change? That’s the definition of new?
Maybe.
You know what the definition of new is?
Give it out.
You take two old things and you put them together. That’s the definition of new.
I’d say, yeah, I’d say that’s the definition of creativeness, too.
Well, that’s the definition of us, shit. That’s how we got here, every single one of us.
Oh, yeah, that’s true, that’s true.
There’s two older things that got together.
Oh, shit. I wasn’t getting it.
That’s how we are.
Oh, shit, yeah.
That’s the definition of new. So that’s why it’s important to check out our comrades, Joel and Immanuel, and then find out who they checked out. Because if you, if you take, you take bits and pieces from different things and you put them together…, and then it’s brand new.
You know what? That’s for sure. I mean, the greatest people that have stated new things, it wasn’t other than looking at the same things we all have in front of our very own eyes, but in a different way. That would be more like creativeness. I got the fact that something new is…
Do you want to be…? See like, for me personally, like people say, you know, you meet people that say “oh, that’s nothing new, I’ve heard that before”. Sometimes you’ll run into that. Or, “these songs, blah, blah, blah, he sounds like, well, they sound like, blah, blah, blah, blah”. Or, I was talking to someone the other day, and they were not a musician, but they were saying, “there’s nothing exciting here, there’s nothing that excited me, it’s not anything new…”, and I’m saying to myself…, I personally, I don’t want to be someone that’s “I did something new”, I just want to be a spoke in the wheel.
Oh, sure.
You understand what I mean? I want to add on to that. I don’t necessarily want to be like “I’ve done something no one’s ever done”.
Yeah, yeah.
I don’t believe…, that’s not real. But, me personally, if I can be a spoke within the wheel, or, you know, a quilt, you know.
Yeah, that’s it.
There’s a, if you get a chance, there’s these…, I had a chance to meet them, there’s these…, I’m not even sure if they’re still alive. There’s this group of people called the Gee’s Bend Quilters, and they make quilts, and they sing. And, and I was in a band, and we did a documentary with them, so we went to Alabama and hung out with them, it was amazing. And, like, they made quilts, but they would take quilts from pieces from this shirt, from this band, and they would add on to it. And that’s what I want to be. I want to be someone that adds on to the story. Because the original name of jazz, before it was called jazz, it was called the remembering song. Before it was called jazz, at a point in time in Congo Square in New Orleans, they were trying to remember where they came, they were trying to retain some point in history. So, I don’t want to, like, shatter anything. I just want to add on to the story, and then the next person comes and add on, but I, I want to be in there with my little spoke, and I’m good, you know, I don’t need to be like, oh, earth shattering, but I just want to be sincere and add on.
That’s one of the essences that I’ve always found most interesting in the jazz world. You can find it also in other expressions.
Absolutely.
But the fact that, you know, you see in the same realm, you can find tradition, and tradition meaning our story, you know, our ancestors, people that gave us birth, after all, and trying to build, add on as you were saying. There’s a lot of people today…
Okay, I got one for you, I got to ask you. I always ask this question, and my friend Branford got me good with this, and he messed me up. Okay, so, what is jazz?
What is jazz?
Yeah, what is jazz?
I would say it’s, for sure, it’s a story that’s always evolving.
Okay. I mean, but technically, what is jazz?
Technically?
Yeah, picture that?
Like a book thing, like more specific.
Yeah, like, what is jazz? You got your phone?
I got my phone, man, but…
Can you play something? I’m going to tell you to pull up something. And if an alien came to this planet, well, give me an example of what jazz is.
Oh, okay, I got you now.
Okay, you ready?
Go for it.
Okay, so put on Sidney Bechet, Love for Sale.
Let’s go, let’s go, let’s play it, Sidney Bechet. One of the great fathers, tt’s slow, but it’ll get there.
This is so important right here, because when I heard this, I was like, oh. And then he told me, so what is jazz? Is jazz improvising?
See if it’s this version here.
Yeah, any version. [They play the music].
That vibrato man, it’s crazy, and the strings as hell man.
Ok, did he solo?
Not at all.
He just played the fucking melody, bro. He didn’t solo. He did some obligato stuff but he didn’t solo. So, what is jazz? That shit was jazz for sure. But, what is jazz?
Because it’s not soloing, or improvising.
No, it ain’t solo. What is jazz? Now, I’m about to hook you up. I’m about to give you…, I don’t know if you’re in school but they’re never gonna tell you this shit in school. Jazz is phrasing.
Phrasing.
That’s what we contribute.
Articulation, yeah.
That’s what we contribute.
We didn’t invent… People are improvising in all these chords and shit…, no, no no. That’s not what jazz is. So it’s phrasing. That’s why Louis Armstrong was so important. So, if it’s phrasing, that means it got into the rock and roll, it got into the funk.
Everything that came after it.
Hip-Hop is the same shit.
Oh, yeah, sure.
The flow. They always say, “oh, man he had a nice flow”, they’re talking about phrasing.
You know what struck you about last night, hearing flamenco. It’s the exact same thing, man. It’s…, we call it, they call it soniquete.
Oh, shit, so there’s a word for it too in that music. Okay, that’s probably why I liked it…
Yeah, soniquete is when someone has a good sound and phrasing.
That’s a word in flamenco?
Or duende, right? Yeah, in flamenco is a real important word. Soniquete is like you ain’t got no swing if it ain’t got soniquete.
Oh!!!
Soniquete comes from Sonido, which is sound. Soniquete is a king way of talking about sound.
Wow, really? See, that’s what got me. I believe so.
If you ain’t got soniquete…
You ain’t got shit.
Yeah, that’s it.
That’s how I felt about it, yeah. A lot of people get me thinking…
I got the chance to talk to Al Di Meola a couple days ago and I needed to ask him about his relationship with Paco de Lucía. Paco is like the greatest, like the Miles Davis from Flamenco. Camarón de la Isla too.
Oh yeah, Camarón!! Woooo!!!
Paco de Lucía was his guitarist.
Yeah, I know him. Oh, shit!
They got together in 81, they got together for an incredible concert of which they put a record out. It’s Al Di Meola, Paco de Lucía and John McLaughlin.
Yeah, yeah, yeah!!
Three guitarists, all together. And the reason why they knew how to speak to each other, musically speaking, technically speaking, was cause they all had soniquete, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah!
Cause Paco knew shit about chord changes and jazz. He was really closed into the flamenco cadence which is very familiar here in Spain, and you hear it also in Pop music from Spain. Flamenco cadence would be like Blues, one harmonic thing that is really in the roots. Or like the Rhythm Changes or whatever. Like, changes are very, very familiar. So he was really into how flamenco people understand harmony, which is for sure different from the way the jazz world takes it. But they all had soniquete, so he could follow along through the harmonic changes that the other two cats were proposing. And they…, he told me, Al, because I asked him “what did you learn from him and what did he learn from you?”, because he’d already passed out, it’s been a while since he passed out. But so, and he said, “man, I think, every time we went on the stage, we were excited because it was like, man, how am I going to follow this cat? Because every time we took a solo…, it was like, oh shit, get ready because I don’t know how am I going to follow you, man, because I don’t know what you’re going to come up with, you know?”
Hahahaa, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But they were always following each other in a way where you could hear it’s super musical, man. And it had a strong sense, you know, strong meaning.
Yeah.
Why? Because they all had soniquete, right? They all had swing, they all had phrasing, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow! Oh shit, it’s a small world, right?
It’s a cool world, man. You should definitely, you know, put it in your library of words because it’s amazing. Because it’s phrasing, I guess you would find it also in, it’s more like a technical world, you know, where you could talk about phrasing in Chopin’s music, right?
Yeah, yeah.
You can talk about phrasing in 8bit music, I mean.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But soniquete is like a very, very, very slang thing, and it’s cool.
Yeah, I like it.
I’ve studied jazz in school and stuff. And then one of the things I’ve done is a research master’s degree, right? So after bachelor’s. And, you know, I’ve read so many things and, you know, my research topic has always been, you know, the avant-garde, but not in the sense of the 70’s. The meaning of the word, I liked it. So, the avant-garde would be the contemporary music jazz scene. So, I’ve been, you know, searching a lot around New York scene, so that’s the reason why I got the chance to have a wild and a while with Immanuel a few years ago and with Joel Ross. We’re friends together and it’s amazing. So, yeah, and I’ve already written some interesting stuff on these topics, right? But, you know, the most interesting stuff that I’ve found is…, everyone that I’ve fallen in love with, in the music world, had an approach to music. And it was, you know, it was… their point of view was holistic, you know? It was never partial, you know?
Okay, okay, yeah.
It had to do with everything in life. So, we’re talking about unity here, you know? And now that you were saying before, what’s new? It’s something that comes from…
Two old things.
Man, I’d like to highlight that right there you got at least a three-part relationship.
Yeah.
So, there’s community going, you know?
Wow, okay, yeah.
And so, man, phrasing all this shit can only, it can only have to do with a communal experience, you know?
Mmm, wow.
So, something that’s always deeper than your thoughts or than the definition that you would give about whatever soniquete is, or community is. Cause, the most beautiful thing about another human being is that you’re different from me, you know, and that’s the thing I need to stay alive. Interesting, you know.
Yeah, that’s beautiful, man. Wow, he taught me some stuff, man, thank you, brother.
JD, man, it’s gonna be a pleasure every time you come and hit us up, and whenever I come visit you, man, I’ll text you or whatever.
I’m not too far away, man, come anytime, man.
