In&OutJazz: Hi Mr. Osby. Welcome to Madrid. It is a very pleasure to be here with you. Are you ready for the conversation? I would love to speak with you about your great last project, Minimalism. What can you tell us about the band of your new album? How did you put this band together? What was in your mind?

Greg Osby: I’m very happy about… For me. Yeah, I wanted to have many colors, and many options represented. That’s why I have the women, because I really like the sound of women’s voice combined with my saxophone. It’s a very nice connection, and I wanted to use that color. Especially with, you know, the Italian, the woman from Italia, you know, she has (Alessandra Diodati) the Italian sound. And then Viktorija, she’s from Lithuania but she lives here in Spain so long, so she has another approach. So that gives me many options. And then my accordion player, João Barradas, he’s from Lisbon. So, he’s a very popular classical and jazz accordion player. Very unusual. So, to have that sound, it’s just so many different, I have choices. Tal Cohen… And… I’m really proud of, you know, the band. I like to find young musicians who are not well-known, and then cultivate, you know, their talents and kind of bring in, bring them into my world. And so, it’s very difficult to keep musicians this way, because one day nobody knows them. Now everybody knows them, and it’s hard for me to get them. But the advantage is there’s no shortage of young musicians. They’re everywhere. So, I have, you know, I mean, in every country. It’s not even exclusive to United States or New York. Every country has some of the top musicians, because the world is smaller now. We’re connected, you know, via the Internet. So, everybody’s learning the same things. Everybody’s developing faster. So, it’s a good time in that respect. Now, in the other respect, it’s more difficult, because there’s so many musicians, that it’s difficult to find quality places to play. Because some of the unknown musicians will take less money. And so, the promoters want you to take the less money. And they don’t want to pay you what you’re worth. I say, man, I’ve been out here more than 40 years. I can’t accept that, you know, I have a group of people that I want to treat well. So, it’s a, you know, we have to dance. We have to do the dance. But musically speaking, artistically speaking, I’m very, very happy with the recording. It’s been received well. People like it. And it said what I wanted to say. You know, the album is basically a representation. The album represents what I would like music to sound like in 2024. It’s kind of an evolution, my personal evolution, and also the things that can go into music. My primary source of inspiration for this kind of music would be Wayne Shorter, because he continued to grow for his whole career. He never stopped. That’s my model, my “modelo”, just to keep moving. I learn, I meet beautiful people, I eat great food, I travel, read books. All this goes into the music. Nothing goes to waste. And for the future, I just intend to… I have some other projects that are almost complete. I have an organ trio. I have a chamber group with five female voices. And then I have another acoustic group with my acoustic quartet with string quartet. I did a record like this before, but now this is 30 years later. So, it’s going to show growth. And I collaborate freely with other interesting musicians. I’d like to play other people’s music. I don’t want to be exclusive only to my music because it’s lazy, but it’s also… It prohibits growth. You know, there are many people that sound good playing their own music. But when you hear them play with somebody else, they don’t sound so good. Because they become spoiled. And that’s not the way. So, if somebody calls me and I think their music is challenging and interesting, I’ll do it. Even if it’s not the greatest conditions, I’ll do it because I want to see if I can do it. I want to see if I will sound good with other people. I’ve always been that way. And it doesn’t have to be jazz or swinging. It can be anything. I mean, it can be folk music, it can be hip-hop, it can be salsa, reggae, calypso, whatever. But if it’s interesting, I say “hmm, let’s try it”. I think that’s a good way to be because then I won’t get stuck in the same place. I don’t want to sound the same way that I sounded 20 years ago. So, when you hear me next time, I’ll be totally different. That’s my goal, to keep moving. A work in progress.

And what is the evolution of your sound? From your first experience with M-bass and…?

Yeah. Well, you know, when I moved to New York, I was primarily a bebop saxophonist like everybody else. But I soon realized that that wasn’t satisfying to me. Because I was playing with the language of Charlie Parker. It was already old at that time. I was a young person. I wanted to do something that reflected what was in my head, which was a more advanced train of thinking, something that’s more inclusive of different resources. So, I actively looked for other people who thought the way I did, who see the world as I see it. So, when I met Steve Coleman, we connected. And so, we found other musicians to start this collective. So, we can experiment and try new things with no restrictions.

Wow, yeah!

Those were very good years. We did a lot of work, a lot of meetings, tried many things, did some tours. But everything has its place. So, after doing that for some years, I said, now I have to be independent. I have to do my own thing. And so, we went in different directions, which is natural. That’s called growth. But as I said, I like to talk to people and find out what they’re into. Maybe they can recommend a book. Maybe they can recommend a film or a director. Or maybe they can recommend a recipe. New food, new ingredients, spices. All these things go into the recipe, the creative recipe. And I like to talk to older musicians, too. Virtuosos, masters, maestros. Folk music, indigenous music. I talk to them through interpreters. And then I maybe find some of the classical music of that era, of the country, and I’ll analyze it. Not so I can play it verbatim, but so that I can use it when necessary. You know, you build a big library of references. It’s important. Because if you don’t do this, it’s almost like being a chef that only has three ingredients. I want to have, you know, basil, oregano, dill, pepper, salt, paprika. I want to have big options, not just pepper, salt. Also, it’s like a painter who only has two colors. I want to have the, you know, kaleidoscope, the spectrum. You know. Because internally, there’s just something that prevents me from repeating myself. If I do something the same way, I almost get a headache. So, it’s very important for me to have many things to work with. So that I can take a different direction tonight than the next night I can “let’s try this”, “let’s try something I never did before”. Maybe it works. “Oh, it didn’t work!” So, I would like to see this attitude more commonly amongst contemporary musicians. I want to see them not being afraid to take a chance. Because music is moving slower now. It used to move faster. Because musicians didn’t care what people thought. But now people are being more conservative.

And you’re not.

Yeah. And we don’t have the big record labels that are developing the artists. And we don’t have a lot of the elder masters who are teaching the young people the way. So, a lot of young musicians are moving slower because they don’t know what to do. So that’s another thing that I like to do is to make myself available to musicians. You know, with my experience and my connections, my contacts, and also my opinion, if they ask for it. I don’t impose. But if they want information, it’s free. Just, you know…, and I think that’s important too.

You have recorded with Blue Note Records. But, how’s creating your own record label like? How’s that experience?

Okay, so of course, I was on Blue Note Records for 16 years. Before that, I was on a small label based in Munich called JMT. It was distributed globally through Polygram, so that’s more or less 20 years with major labels. So, in 2006, I was on my, I think, one of my last tours with the Grateful Dead. And I saw the people in the audience taping. And I asked the bassist, Phil Lesh, I said, “man, these guys are taping your show”, and he said, “oh, they’ve been taping us since 1967, we allow them to tape so that they could trade the recordings”. I said, “hmm, that’s a really good idea”. So I put 15 live recordings of my band on my website, and people were downloading and making live CDs. And so, the sales went up because people were grateful that I gave them these free music, and so they bought my CD. But I was thinking, I was saying, wait a minute, so Blue Note owns this CD, and they own all my CDs. And I don’t own any of them. But it’s my music. So that’s when I decided to start my own label. I said, man, “I need to, you know, be in charge of my own destiny, make my decisions”. And so I got a big artistic grant. And I handpicked some musicians around New York who I really respected. They were younger, but they couldn’t get a record deal. So, I started my label, Inner Circle Music.

Yeah, yeah.

And we’ve been going since 2007 and still going. At one point, I had 72 artists. It was too much. I had students, and I had interns working for me, and it was just, it took all of my time and energy. So, I had to reduce things so that I could control it. Because even today, you know, every day I’m getting emails with full CDs and productions and…, through social media. “Listen to my music”. I can’t listen to it. Even though some of it is amazing. So, but it’s, right now, it’s a labor of love. Because I’m not doing it for profit. All my artists, they own their work 100%. I just help them to find distribution. Touring, promotion, publicity. And I answer their questions. So, I’m kind of the big brother. And they have the label that we all can exist under. But I don’t want any percentage of anybody’s work. That’s the problem with the labels. They basically own you. So, I don’t like that idea. I don’t like that idea. Independence. Controlled independence with structure and with a plan. And then you can do great things. So that’s continued to go. And ever since the pandemic, I was teaching a lot on Zoom. Sometimes seven or eight students a day. Global. International. And not many saxophone students. I had the vocalists and pianists and drummers and every instrument. And so that still takes up a great deal of my time. Because I like to teach. Because I have a problem with the way music, in particular improvised music, is taught in schools. I don’t like classrooms talking about music. I like one-on-one. Mentors, apprenticeship. But therefore, I don’t have the distraction of other students who don’t really care, who don’t practice, who don’t give a shit. So, if I can be one-on-one with somebody who has experience, much older, and is concentrated. I think that’s just the best way. You know? So I tell the students, you know, “come with many questions and we can just go”. And they can record it so they can refer to it later. It’s good. It works well. Man, it’s so relaxing here! Really!

And who are your artistic and musical inspirations?

My inspiration are the musicians who came before me that worked out an identity in their music, that developed a sound and an approach that details their individuality. So that as soon as they begin to play, you know who it is. Thelonious Monk, as soon as he plays…, Bud Powell, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, Duke Ellington…, as soon as they begin to play, you know who it is. These are the people that I like. Because it’s very personal and distinctive. It’s like there’s nobody else. You know. And when Sarah Vaughan sings one note, or Ella Fitzgerald or Shirley Horn or, you know, Paul Desmond, you know who these people are. As soon as Chet Baker plays, you know who it is. As soon as Miles Davis plays, you know who it is. So, I like identification.

And in first person, what do you say about your identity, like a musician, like a composer?

I would define my identity as somebody who is restless, who cannot stay in the same place. Somebody who keeps moving. So, you don’t know what I’m going to do. So, when people come to see me, I want them to be surprised. The only thing that’s constant is my approach. But my environment, the platform, the colors, they will be different. Because I need that, you know, because if it’s the same, I can’t play. So, I’m a very curious person. I don’t like to not know something. So, if something is of interest to me, I will do the research. I will investigate, I will analyze, extract, and put into my music. I think it’s not responsible to just like it and do nothing. I think the responsible thing to do is to find out how it works, why it works and if it can work for me. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Yeah, I understand. How would you describe the experience of learning from the new generations? What’s your relationship with the young cats like?

it’s just that I’m hopeful that more musicians will not be afraid to try something new. And I’m hopeful that more musicians will not be dismissive of things that are not in their world. We have to embrace. We have to be inclusive instead of exclusive. You know what I’m saying? “That’s kind of interesting, let me check it out, that’s the best attitude”. So that means we can all move forward together. Otherwise, music is compartmentalized. You know, category. We have to get rid of the categories. Because the categories are a design, you know, for commerce, for market, to sell the music. But, you know, great musicians never call their music jazz or bebop or anything. It’s just my music from my heart and I hope you enjoy it. If you don’t enjoy it “lo siento”. Maybe you’ll enjoy the next one. You know? We can’t get discouraged. Because the point is to make people feel the same way we feel when we wrote the music. So, I want you to have the same experience as me. When I wrote Minimalism, it was too much. It was kind of overkill. Sensory overload. So, I had to take things out. That’s why I call it Minimalism. I had to… “Okay, now it’s right”. Because it was many years since I did my last recording. So, I had too many ideas. And so it was just too much. I wanted to tell a story so people could say “oh, that’s nice”. And I want them to look forward to the next song. Not like one song and enough. So that’s why I had to… they say… I don’t know how to say it in Español, “trim the fat”, take off the excess.

Take off, trim the fat. In Spanish is quitar, cortar la grasa.

And it takes a great deal of honesty. Because most musicians think that everything they do is great. But I said “I like it, but I don’t think everybody’s going to like it”. Because I’ve done many experimental recordings and eclectic recordings where I love it. But the writers, the people, and other musicians don’t understand it. Because I’ve been there working with this for a long time. So, for Minimalism, I wanted to make something that appeals to people who maybe don’t even like this music. And I did a play test at different schools, “escuelas”, and just played and asked the students, so what do you think? And some of them, you don’t like it. I said “okay”. I’m doing the right thing. Because I’ve done that before and they just sit there. You know. So, I think I’m in the right direction.

Spain feels different now than it felt like 30, 40 years ago when I first came here.

What do you mean with this?

Before, I felt more like a stranger. People would, I don’t know if they had much experience with American black people, you know. But now, there are a lot of African people here.

The last time you stayed here, four years ago, near the pandemic, maybe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the time before, oh, one significant time, I came here. And I got here early in Madrid, and I went to sleep at the hotel. And when I woke up at noontime, I asked the people at the front desk, I said, is the restaurant open, or is there somewhere nearby where I can eat? And the whole hotel lobby went silent when I started to speak. And then I asked the woman, I said, “Oh, I’m sorry”. I said, “I’m sorry, did Trump win the election?”, and she said “sí, señor”. It was election day. And I was like, “oh”. Election day, okay. Because I voted, and then I went to the airport and came to Madrid. Because I knew Hillary was going to… I just knew it. I just, and as soon as I spoke English, everybody’s… It was, that was a very long four years. And it still hasn’t ended, but I don’t want to talk about that.

Indeed! What a life! Tell us a little bit about the touring experience back in the day.

See, back when I started, you know, we would do a run and we would do maybe, you know, four or five, maybe more cities in every country. You know. In Italy, you know, it would be Verona, Firenze, Roma, Milano, Bologna, you know, all over the place, you know, Germany, Berlin, Hamburg, Salzburg, you know, all, you know, Frankfurt, then come to Spain and, you know, Zaragoza, down south, Granada, Jaen, like little towns, you know, even, you know, all over, everywhere, you know, Madrid, Barcelona. And so, you could get a feel for the country. And now we’re bouncing all over the place. And it’s so exhausting, you know, all those flights, airlines up and down, then sometimes it’s delayed, then you miss the connection, then you miss the concert, or your bags don’t arrive. And that really messes with me psychologically, because I can’t get on the stage with the clothes that I wore on the airplane, with sneakers and, you know, I respect the audience too much, and I want to look nice. You know, all the people that came before me, they showed the audience respect, and now, I don’t want to sound like an old man, but a lot of the young musicians, they wear the same clothes they wear on the street. You know, they look like Kurt Cobain, you know, with holes and dirty, you know, and hair… like, “oh, my God, come on, man”. You know what I mean. If I’m paying, you know, dinero, I want first class, I want top, you know, because I paid. I worked hard. You know, don’t come, you know, the clothes look like this. You know, so, and I try to coach my young musicians and tell them, they say, “oh, I want to be comfortable”, and I say, “if you can be comfortable a little bit and look nice, you don’t have to look like, you know, you’re playing football, you know, you don’t wear sport clothes on stage, you know”. Look at Duke Ellington. Duke Ellington was beautiful. You know, just, it doesn’t have to be, you know, just.

Do you think that it is more difficult to tour right now?

Yeah, it definitely is more difficult now.  But, see, the other thing, say, for instance, we were traveling around in Italy and, you know, every town had a festival. They had these, these churches that, you know, were ruins. They would make a festival, you know, in the piazza. They would put the speakers and the stage and make a festival. So, you didn’t have to travel far, maybe one, two hours for a festival, you know. But now, there’s no money, so we have to fly everywhere. Man, by, after one week on the road, I feel like an old man. You know, I am an old man.

But with the young spirit!

In&OutJazz: You must have told a lot of people this same story, but I wanted to understand a little more about the influence that the Amazon had on “Y’Y”, an incredible album that is being acclaimed all over the world.

Amaro Freitas: It was a transformative experience to get to know a Brazil that Brazilians don’t know. Even though we see images on TV or in the newspaper, it’s very different when you’re there, experiencing this territory. It’s a different food, a different dialogue, a different perspective on life. There are several indigenous communities, more than 300 languages… it’s a very powerful nature. There’s a river where you can’t see the bank on either the right or the left side. It’s a meeting of the waters between two rivers, with totally different colors, that don’t mix: the Rio Negro and the Rio Solimões. It was an educational experience to be able to participate in this ritual, to see the Tucandeira dance, which is a rite of passage for boys to become adults, to eat alligator meat, fish and Tambaqui ribs with the indigenous people, to drink pure Guaraná from the Amazon in the ciranda, where everyone is on equal terms. So, all of this had a huge impact on me. Especially the Sateré-Mawé indigenous community… Professor Heron, who is from the Federal University of Amazonas, took me to the village. And there, I understood a little about the work they do, right? That it is a work very focused on indigenous communities, but to also connect this with the Federal University, to connect students with the community in the villages, to make money, to generate money, for these communities too. So, there is a very difficult and tough logic, because drug trafficking is very present today in indigenous communities and there are several communities disguised as indigenous and drug trafficking is behind it. And then, I was impressed by another Brazil that I think every Brazilian should know. A Brazil that for many people in São Paulo, many in Pernambuco, is not interesting. It’s better to go to Disney than to Amazon. This touched me and I wanted to make a connection with what I had already been studying, which was the prepared piano. This prepared piano is a very specific technique developed by John Cage, which puts several things inside the piano, and in this way it changes the sound of the piano. So now I wanted to mix this sound of the prepared piano with the experiences I had in Manaus. And talking to the people there, we talked a lot about some legends, right? About the Mapinguari, about the Pink Dolphin, about the mermaid Uiara, about the Headless Mule, about the importance of these popular details, and how the indigenous people believe in this, that the dolphin transforms into a man, that the dolphin is also a guardian of the waters and that it saves people when they are drowning. There is a real belief in this… I was very curious because I was very impacted and wanted to pay homage to the forest and the river through these mystical and folkloric elements and also through the popular Brazilian saying. But I wanted it not to sound like appropriation. So, we understood that paying homage in this place was much more an exchange between communities than an appropriation of the territory.

In&OutJazz: How can you transfer this experience to the piano and transform it into jazz and transmit it to the world?

Amaro Freitas: I think jazz has become an art that embraces various types of music. And I think this type of music connects through spirituality. I realized that I was talking about a much deeper Brazil through the way I spoke. So I think this aligns with a place of spirituality. This has a very strong place in spiritual jazz, which talks about ancestry, and not only black, but also indigenous. For me, it was about thinking about how to transform this piano into this sensorial noise that would take you, transport you to this emotion that I experienced in the Amazon. So, I got a guitar ebow, put it inside the piano and the ebow takes some harmonics from the guitar, which I managed to get from the piano. Man, it sounded like the song of Uiara. So, in my head it was the mermaid calling you to dive into the river and then when you go into the river you see the connection with the Pink Dolphin, that is, the connection between the dolphins. And then I try to find an onomatopoeia for the sound of dolphins. When I put my hand inside the piano and take it out, it makes the sound of the animal in the river. And then, there is an image that stays in my head, which is when some divers go down in a submarine to a point in the ocean where the light no longer reaches. They turn off the submarine’s light and when they turn it back on, all the animals that reflect light shine in front of the submarine. So, it is as if we had dived to the bottom of the ocean and I start: “tan-tan-tan-talan-tan”. Now we are making a trail through this constellation of fish, you know? This also brings up a question and a reflection of how wonderful these corals are, these fish that reflect light are wonderful, the river is wonderful, the dolphin is wonderful. Are you sure this is the place you want to throw a straw in? I think this reflection remains: what are we doing to our planet, and this issue of balance on the planet is something that indigenous people talk about in a very powerful way. So, I wanted to bring some of this reflection with this tribute to Rio as well.

It makes people see another country too, as you said, a Brazil that we don’t know, but also, to experience this experience there too, right!?

Many people, when they finish a show, say to me: wow, I felt like I was in the forest. It’s like we’re being transported from the heart of the Amazon rainforest.

Why?

In addition to trying to translate a story, there are several elements that are from there. I have a rattle, several whistles, a harmonica flute, which came from Manaus and is very reminiscent of the sounds of the indigenous people, of the flutes they play in their communities. So I think that this whole mix, also having Naná Vasconcelos and Milton Nascimento as references, makes the work reach a place that connects the spiritual Brazil that already exists with my current experience.

I was in Portugal at a cultural journalism meeting and one of the talks was about jazz and we got to the question of what jazz really is. I wanted to ask you, in your opinion, what is jazz?

I think jazz is a place of freedom where we have to express creative music that has been developed and processed over a long time. This music brings the expressiveness of a people with their characteristics, their identities, and it also manifests itself in a very improvised way. The mix of bringing something that is extremely sensitive, but also extremely intellectual, and also with the possibility of doing things that will be different at each concert. I think that’s what jazz is all about. Jazz allows you to have a unique experience at each concert you go to by the same artist. So I think that the difference between classical music, where you’ll listen to a piece, or popular music, which will always have the same rhythm, jazz is allowing for free music. Music that communicates with several people, whether it’s sung or played, whether you understand several languages ​​or only have your native language, I think the spirit of jazz goes beyond all of that, breaking the language barrier. You also have the ability to observe the real feelings of that person. If we were to use a Brazilian term to describe jazz, we would say: jazz means now.

Speaking of which, you are currently in your career, being acclaimed all over the world… that Amaro who started playing in the church and then did all that running around to make a living from music, would you have imagined that Amaro would be where he is today?

I think so, because I have always been very ambitious because of my influences. I didn’t see influences as an impossible place, but rather as a possible place. So, I would see Chick Corea, I would see Thelonious Monk… and I would say: I want to play in this place where these guys are playing. My whole life I have fought, I believed, I did everything to reach these places. And for me it was very impactful that I played in some festivals now, this year, last year, where Chick Corea played and I watched, right? Like North Sea Jazz, Montreux Jazz Festival, Newport Jazz Festival… so, it was a really crazy feeling to occupy this place as a Brazilian musician in these jazz festivals where I watched my idols.

Today we are here at the first edition of the São Paulo Jazz Weekend, which is a jazz festival. There are few jazz festivals in Brazil, compared to Europe and the United States. Do you think there is a need for more jazz festivals, or for jazz artists to be at major festivals, so that it becomes more popular in Brazil, breaking the myth that exists in the country that jazz is a music only for the elite and intellectuals?

It’s complicated to talk about this. Do you think we should have a music market that guides artists more so that they can do their work as artists who will have the courage to support their own work… in my opinion, we have a lot of jazz festivals in Brazil. But this is also aligned with the public… people want to attract audiences to festivals and, sometimes, jazz ends up mixing with other types of music. I also understand that the contractor needs to be accountable for all of this. There are many things that need to be taken into account so that we can have a jazz festival like jazz abroad has. But I don’t know, at jazz festivals anywhere in the world, there will be pop artists, because it’s no longer the case that only pure jazz is played. I think that perhaps this type of music is in a transitional period, and I also don’t have an answer as to where this will lead. But if musicians have the courage to take their own work and have guidance on how to do it in the best way, I believe that this would greatly help the instrumental music market in Brazil.

You were nominated for a Grammy with Criolo and Dino D’Santiago for “Esperança”? How did you receive this news? Like, it’s kind of a… I wouldn’t say validation, right? But it’s also a crowning achievement for your work, right? Like, three black artists also making it to the biggest international award.

I got a call from Criolo, right? And then we were really excited… I had a feeling that we could be nominated and for me it’s a moment of great happiness. So much is happening and to be nominated for a Grammy is truly unbelievable. I’m really happy about this, especially making music with these two guys who are also a reference in what they do… I think Dino and I are being pulled by Criolo with this vision of our work and our connection, doing it in a really beautiful way and letting Dino and I feel very comfortable to be able to create the sound that comes from our soul. I think it’s going to be really beautiful to participate in this ceremony with him and who knows, maybe we’ll be able to bring Caneco here.

You’ve also been working with several artists, most recently you participated in Liniker’s beautiful album…

She’s a sweetheart… on the album Caju, I added a little spice to the song “AO TEU LADO” which we also shared with ANAVITÓRIA with an orchestral arrangement by Henrique Albino and a great band playing. It was a really cool moment for me to also be able to do this feat with Liniker, who is an artist I love so much, very powerful and I’m very happy with where we’ve ended up.

What are your next steps, your next plans?

There’s a lot to happen. I’m still not sure what I’m going to do next. If I record YY with a band, if I record with a trio from outside Brazil, if I make an album with an orchestra. I have a lot of plans, but I’ve always waited for life to give me signs of the best paths I can choose.